= Cost vs. Value
/It was more of a square table than a round one, but thanks to everyone who came out for this excellent discussion. Lots of notes below! -- Jay /
Mike Glenn's talk on /Time Management for Small Businesses/ from TorCamp1 (see notes: ETATimeManagementForSmallBusiness) generated a really interesting conversation about how we, as Professional Services businesses, should be charging for our products and services. The debate centered around the idea of cost vs. value: should we charge for five hours of time if a service cost five hours to build (the 'Law and Accounting' model), or should we charge for what we think the service is worth to the client (the 'Advertising' model?).
We had to cut the talk short since we ran out of time in the session, but a number of people expressed an interest in continuing the conversation. Please join us at the first TorCamp RoundTable! wino kredyt mieszkaniowy sprzedam mieszkanie sprzedam bilet
Details
- Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2006
- Time: 6:30 pm
- Location: Sweet Lulu, 859 Queen Street West. Upstairs room is reserved for "Jay".
- Topic: Cost vs. Value Billing for technology related professional services firms
- Format: An open, round-table discussion over dinner and drinks
Attendees:
Notes
/Apologies if I made any transcription errors - please correct or add your thoughts! Thanks - Jay/
- Mike recaps his presentation from TorCamp (see notes: ETATimeManagementForSmallBusiness)
- Hourly rate, setup tasks, track tasks
- See if we're over/under
- Estimate Track Analysis (ETA)
- Full circle process that helps employees get better at estimating
- Deb: reputation earns you the privelege of charging more
- Jon: from our standpoint, we've been having lots of discussions about how to charge.
- We might want to start charging by value instead
- Services business can only grow by adding people or raising prices under current model
- Deb: you can also change your quality - if you lower it then you can churn out more
- Jon: that's a volume game so you end up adding more people again
- Jon: we do frontend user interface design right up to building then we hand off to a tech group
- Ultimately all in the business of selling our hours
- We all looked to lawyers to figurer out a model in the beginning
- We don't want to grow by adding bodies - we want to grow by charging more
- Rob: Is there information asymetry between you and clients over how long a job is going to take?
- Jon: We're better than they are but they have some awareness
- Jay: It's the same with us: a common question is why can't you build it in three weeks?
- Rob: it's the same with law. We typically retain IP to our work.
- Jon: We lose ours.
- David: If you go in with some tech then you keep it, but if you build something for them then you lose.
- Jason: Same for us - any tech we have we maintain but any artwork we build we lose the IP for. If we use our existing toolkit then we have to sign over IP and then the project will quadruple.
- Rob: A sophisticated client will understand that.
- Jon: Our clients don't understand that.
- Mike: We have a platform that we build on. Our clients ask us about our software if we go out of business, so we leave our source code in escrow with our lawyer.
- Jon: Software is a value basis, not a cost basis.
- Mike: If I flip it around and someone came to me. Ultimately your clients are investing in you. You can have the value of what I'm building as a fixed rate, and I'm taking the risk.
- Jon: This isn't really about ROI - this issue really comes up at the edges. Because we pride ourselves on being faster and more nimble, we are now being punished because we can't charge us much for it. How do we overcome that?
- Rob: In law, something that some people do is ask for a success fee based on the success of the mandate. You see that in litigation.
- Chris: My clients come to me to ask me to make a change to their application and I can make that change in 15 minutes and it will save the client thousands but I can only charge for 15 minutes.
- Jason: It's like an arms race - if everyone tries to get faster and more efficient then we all end up charging less.
- Rob: There's an intangible aspect to design - if you're good then people will charge more.
- Jon: Withihn our level I think that our competitors all deliver equivalent value so people choose for a supplier for a different reason.
- Deb: What about a surcharge at the beginning of an engagement before you quote?
- Rob: Lawyers do that and clients hate it.
- Jay: We do a mixed approach for some activities like identity design ...
- Jon: If Coca Cola comes in, would you charge the same amount as a local architecture firm?
- Jay: No - we charge more because we know they have more money.
- Mike: Our hourly rate goes up over time as we get better but we sometimes lower it for our clients.
- Chris: Why don't clients understand that there's value in working with you over time?
- Jon: We lose some money on the first job because we put more time on to learn about them and that get's easier over time. But if we come in low then we set the tone for all future engagements and it can take years to overcome it.
- David: I'm not convinced that the services model grows at all - that's why we end up with 37 Signals.
- Jon: We're getting there too.
- Mike: And with every person you add you add complicated.
- Deb: Let's take a step back - what does growing your business mean? It's really about supporting your lifestyle.
- Jon: Some companies will reach a point where they don't need to grow their revenue anymore but we're not there now.
- David: What about pure design firms? All they've done is grow their accounts side and add more bodies.
- Jon: We hit our billing capacity every year in terms of reasonable hours. We base on 1500 hours/year/person.
- Deb: That's kind of revolutionary - most software firms have no concept of limiting hours.
- David: If you have 1500 hours a year then it makes sense to get them as early and quick and dirty as you can so that the rest is gravy.
- Rob: 2000 (or up) for associates at big firms.
- Rob: What about raising the hourly rate?
- Jon: There's a trend in the services business for clients to evaluate quality of firms based on hourly rates. It's so irrelevent to our business because we just staff more people on the job at a lower rate.
Blended rate: averaged rate of everyone in the company.